Season 1: Episode #8
What makes a hero?
According to Philosopher and Scholar Joseph Campbell, a hero is an archetypal figure who takes a journey from his or her ordinary world, goes out on an adventure, through a decisive crisis wins a victory, then returns home transformed with gained wisdom to offer others. This podcast explores real people, real stories and the pivotal moments that changed the course of their lives forever.
There's no transformation without promises and requests because at some point in the process of fulfilling my promise, I come up against every time, am I going to do this because of what I said or am I going to back off and do something else that feels better, that's more immediate? In that moment when I really believe, when I choose to do what I promised, I actually become my word.
Dan Tocchini is a gifted and compassionate being. With his great ambition also comes a readily accessible vulnerability. He generously shares his hard-learned lessons and well-honed skills to bring out truth and freedom for others. I can draw a straight line from his influence to me becoming a Life Coach. May you also be impacted by the transformational journey of this tremendous Hero. I’m Belinda Lams and this is The Moment When…
For the last 35 years, Dan Tocchini III has been a business and social entrepreneur and a published author. Dan specializes in curriculum design, training, executive coaching, change management, conflict resolution, corporate culture, sales, negotiation and business development. He is the founder and CEO of Blood & Ethos – Institute for Heroic Livingtraining and coaching in living a sustainably productive life of meaning. Dan has developed curriculum for ESPN, Disney, Interstate Batteries, Microsoft, Straight Ahead Ministries, Defy Ventures& Crossing The Jordan.
How do we know each other?
We know each other from the experience of the training that's how I know you. And I remember you, your face and I remember some of the interactions but that's it. What do you remember?
I remember… so I took Breakthrough Training, I think in maybe 2001. It rocked my world and kind of shook some of the false personas off of me and helped me get more in touch with a deeper part of myself that I knew was there but I didn't know how to access in interactions with other people as well as I learned afterward. So it was very, very powerful for my life. You were not my trainer, I had a different trainer but I knew your name because you were behind the whole thing. So, then I think a couple years later I ended up serving on some teams and I ended up on a team in 2004 where I was the team captain and you were the trainer. And Jeff was on the team, my husband as well. And during that training, our daughter who had had leukemia and was in remission, we found out that she relapsed. We had to quit the team and go into the hospital and deal with that and…
So you were the captains and I remembered we prayed for you just before you left.
That’s right. Yeah, she died in 2004. So that training was probably 2003 because she went through a year of intensive experimental stuff and she didn't make it. So that's a whole other story and that's part of why I'm doing this too.
Yeah, make sense, I'm so sorry.
Yeah, thank you. So that's been 14 years.
So I don't know what you're going to share and I'm really excited to find out. Let's start with what your ordinary world was like before you got your call.
Well, my ordinary world was pretty crazy. My mother was a manic depressive schizophrenic and started to have episodes when I was around 11 or 12 years old. Very much like a beautiful mind. I mean, she was brilliant, loving and she was under a lot of pressure. My dad was a womanizer and gone a lot. And they weren't getting along and they didn't really break up till I was 18 so it was a pretty hairy ride for six or so years.
And I became really involved in my mother's treatment I think partly because I took a great interest in understanding her symbols. Because when somebody disassociates and either goes into a dissociative state which often happens with manic-depressives and she had schizophrenic features, so she heard noises. I was really interested because it appeared she was trying to communicate and I wanted to understand what she was saying. When she would move the salt shaker, pepper shaker, glasses around and put them in a certain configuration and look at us like, “Do you get it?” Like, “Okay, now what?” And it would freak my brothers and sisters and my dad out and I would stay at the table and try to figure what she was trying to say because it seemed like she was communicating.
I had been reading some stuff by Bendler and Grinder on neuro-linguistic programming. And so I convinced the doctors at about, I think I was about 14 or so, to allow me to see if I could communicate with her because you know, they had her on Thorazine. It was like a chemical lobotomy and I think they were discussing doing something physiologically because she was violent. So I convinced my dad to let me go in there and see what I could do and I was able to connect with her. She opened up and she actually came out of the catatonic state to talk with me and actually her first words were “Oh, finally, somebody's listening.” And all I was doing was sitting next to her for a little over an hour and a half, breathing and trying to model her physiology.
So I really started at that age reading. I think the first book I ever read cover to cover was Gestalt therapy verbatim. As a young guy, I'd go once in a while, the doctors would send me to a debrief and we go to Esalen and sit and talk and I just gogot connected into the human potential world at a young age and it was very helpful.
Dan’s family continued to disintegrate throughout his teens. The stress became so much, that he moved out early and eventually enrolled in a privileged University as an underprivileged student. Though he had left his painful past, he still carried the brokenness with him.
I began to deal drugs at college and got deep into the you know… just basically making money off the rich kids is how I saw it. After a about semester and a half I left and I bought a business up in Willows California. I had saved money both from doing some odd jobs and drug dealing and went and bought a movie theater which I was real adept in because my father was in the movie business, so I grew up in movie theaters. And I knew how to run them so. Basically, I opened the theater so I could launder money, drug money. And I started doing a lot of illegal activity, guns, the whole thing.
And I met my wife there while I was doing this and simultaneously unbeknownst her, I got connected to one of her older brothers who was working with me dealing drugs and other things. She didn’t know I was doing this. I came across like a business owner and pretty straight. She had no idea. I was living a double life.
Dan received his first call to adventure with a sudden impact.
In 1981, I got in a car accident and died three times and had a visitation. I had a conversation with Jesus and I had felt him talking to me and kind of putting his hands through my hair, but I didn't have any visuals. It was all physical and I could hear him. You know I was dead. I had woken up and they had just put the thing around my toe.
Dan resisted that call from beyond and continued to live his duplicitous life: working a day job as a Transformational Trainer with a human development organization called Life Spring, while simultaneously running his illegal operations in secrecy.
A few years later, Dan and his wife Aileen welcomed a baby boy, Danny, into their world. And then the next call came. Aileen’s brother got killed in a drug deal. Her suspicions increased and she started putting the pieces together. Finally, she confronted Dan with this ultimatum.
Stop doing drugs. Stop dealing drugs. You know, don't associate with the outlaws that I had connected myself to. Break away from all that and live an honest life with me, she said, so that I can trust you. Because I love you. She kept saying I love you. I know. I see you. You don't see yourself. And I said well, I think you're just trying to make me into something I'm not. She said, maybe that's true but I see something greater in you than you do and I look in your eyes and I see sorrow and sadness and mourning and grief and I wish you’d just get real with it. And finally, she said, I gotta go I can't do this to Danny and it won't work for him. He's got to be first.
I’m Belinda Lams and this is The Moment When…Today we’re talking with Dan Tocchini about his descent into a life of fraud and the opportunity he received to ascend into a life of truth … His story continues.
Dan accepted Aileen’s invitation to leave his life of crime and reestablish their marriage on a foundation of honesty. However, there were some stipulations. He must come clean on his secret life. They must live in separate bedrooms without sexual contact. And they must work through the issues in their relationship. If they couldn’t figure it out, then they would split up, but not without trying first. So, they set up a rigorous schedule of morning and evening dialogues with these ground rules:
One is, if we ever started elevating, we would call it off and come back and try again and take another run at it. And while we were away, we would be owning, looking at, how did we contribute to the escalation and we’d start with talking about that.
At this point, I was working and she wasn’t and she was taking care of Danny. And we were spending our savings because we had just bought a home. So, I just started to ask her if she could help, it was important. We would talk about it then pretty soon, I find myself upset with her and say, “So, what you're saying is you don't want to help? You don't want to help make the nut and this is on me and I'm gonna have to get another job even long working 70, 80 hours a week.” And she would say, “Dan, I didn't say that, you’re not listening to me.” And I’d get angry and then I’d say, look I gotta go and then I’d leave. It happened, like three days in a row.
I left and came back that night, we didn't talk about it because we want to hang out with Danny, and didn't want any tension. Slept. Next morning, it went even faster and I got angry even quicker and left. I remember cussing on the second day on the way to work, just yelling at myself in the car, and God.
The Moment When is a pivotal moment that shifts the trajectory of one’s life. It might come in the dark night of the soul or in a moment of illumination. For Dan, it came as a profound insight from the voice of his wife.
She said something that was really prophetic to me. She said, you know Dan, if you're doing that with me you're probably doing that with yourself. You've probably pigeonholed yourself in such a way that you are not aware of nuances both life-giving and otherwise death producing, because of your view of yourself. So, I thought, that was a worthy consideration. And so, that started a whole new level of inquiry and deepening in our relationship. It wasn't but a month later that she invited me back into the relationship and into the bedroom, because we just started connecting so much. That was a huge breakthrough for us.
Did you understand immediately how you could shift yourself or was it a gradual process of practicing new way of listening with her or with yourself?
Well, It was both. It was an immediate breakthrough in my effectiveness that I knew where to focus. There was so much more to learn than just what I just described with so many other nuances and practices that I could engage that would continue to help reveal possibility where I didn't think any was or how to help others find possibility where they didn't think any was.
It was the kind of revelation that I could grab it and look into it deeper and because of that, it was ongoing and it had profound implications later in my life.
Dan’s journey was challenged and deepened through the support of several mentors. One of them was his employer, John Hanley, the founder of a human development organization called Life Spring.
He was a tough guy. I mean, he he's very disciplined and when it came to the work that we did, there was no variance. You learned it the way he taught it and then if you wanted to do someone with it otherwise great, but first demonstrate your competency, produce results and there's either results or there's stories. And if you don't have results, then you have stories. The stories are designed to make you right about not having results and those stories would keep you from actually having things turn out. So, why don't you investigate those stories and challenge them. That's the only way to have breakthroughs out in the world of results.
And that was really powerful for me because there was no room for lying to myself. I started to get in touch with what I call my life sentence. And I think we all have one. I think we all learn to at some level suspect ourselves because of our imperfections. And I think I was dealing deeply with shame When my wife found me out, there was a lot of shame there and contempt. I would use contempt to drive me from the desire I had to connect with her because it felt like she would hurt me and I didn't want to get that vulnerable. So, contempt was a good way to stay away from that desire for connection. And it came out of this shame for being caught, lying and cheating and being a fraud. And that's really been my life sentence from I can't remember.
I mean, I think the first time I really made that up was when my dad said well you know you exaggerate. I was making up a story and just using my imagination, I remember I was about seven. He called me a liar and I thought, oh shoot maybe I'm a liar. And that’s where I was just kind of tracing back where I might have bought this or I used this against myself. Not like he treated me like that, he just was addressing me from what his perspective was. And I had quite a conflicted relationship with him until I was about 23, 24. And he became one of my mentors as well later on. But this guy, John Hanley was really helpful in discerning what I do to myself.
Finding some solid ground for me to look and see where I stood. Either I'm producing what I said or I didn't and if I wasn't, what was the story I was making up and if I couldn't break through, what was I making up that was making me right about where I'm at? What sacrifices was I unwilling to make because I'd rather be right?
And my wife was instrumental in revealing this. Simultaneously she's bringing the tape recorder and having these conversations with me. So, all this came together in a very powerful way and all of a sudden it just crystallized and I had a sense of what to focus on when I'm working on myself transforming and reinventing myself and also how I could work with others.
As Dan’s self-awareness grew, he began to focus on his faith as well. This brought him face to face with his resistance toward religion.
I grew up in the Catholic Church, I was physically abused by nuns, beat, dragged. I mean I get one nun dragged me up the aisle when I was seven by the ear and slapped me around. So, I really had a hard time with dogma and religious stuff and so being a Christian wasn't my favorite thing. In fact my faith wasn't it was a problem for me because I didn't want to be one of them, a fraud. Ha a fraud. Yeah, all these didn’t make sense.
How funny, right? And so instead, I'll just be a fraud.
That's right. Well, I’ll just be a fraud another way.
Dan decided to try the church world again, but from a new place of understanding. He found a small Episcopalian Church that seemed to fit his family and their values. As their involvement grew, he started a small group where he was able to share his transformational style of teaching.
This priest came to me and asked me what I was doing and I was telling him, just working some stuff I learned you know at this company I work at but really it's just a way of teaching that's really seems more Jesus-like than what we do and it's more conversational. It’s Socratic. I teach the scripture using this approach, this pedagogy. And he said, well I’d love to see what you're doing. So, I kind of showed him, he got excited. He goes, “Can you develop a training for my elders?” And then, he brought me on the elder board.
And I did a couple of one-day, two-day experiments and what this work does, it brings whatever's underneath, whatever's not being spoken, must first be spoken so we can get to what's behind it. So all of a sudden, all these elders have things to tell this priest that they hadn't told him and I didn't know and they're going to him talking to him, and then he asked me to put the reins on them. I said, “I'm sorry, but I don't have the reins.” So, then he excommunicated me from the church. Basically, he told me to get out.
And so began a series of challenges and opportunities. Dan received invitations to put on more faith based-trainings outside of church. The participants would come from their various congregations and experience massive breakthroughs in their lives, then return to their respective churches with a new-found freedom. Like the Episcopalian priest, not all of the church leaders were on board. But some were willing to see the possibilities.
The very first training on we called it equipping the Saints and it was a four day training this time. And there were 22, 23 people actually in it. And they were all from the same church unbeknownst to me. After the training, they asked me if I wanted to go to this church the next Sunday and I said, “Sure.” So, I go to the church and the guy teaching, preaching is a guy named JR Young. And people are dancing up and down the aisles and I noticed that the only people Dancing in the aisles are people who did the training. I can see older folks looking at them and there’s side talk, and I thought, oh this isn't good. And the guy who brought me said, “You want to meet JR Young I said yes.
So I met him and I said I saw the people dancing, they did the training. I kinda explained things to him and I said, “I'm doing another one of these but they're all from your church and I imagine all the people that are enrolling are from your church. And if you don't think I should do this I won't because I can see there’s a little bit of an issue for some people.” And he said, no, I really like your attitude and. I think that freedom is from God. So, we'll need to deal with it but go ahead do it.
In the Hero’s Journey, the Hero encounters tests along the way. Dan encountered his tests as the trainings grew. The unhealthiness beneath various religious movements was being revealed. Churches were splitting and ministry movements crumbling. Dan and his trainings were to blame. One such group decided to take him down, setting off a firestorm of suspicion. They wrote a letter of warning to all the local churches with the objective of exposing the heretical work of Dan Tocchini.
My aunts were in their 90's were calling me and asking me if I'm a cult leader. And I caught a guy going through my garbage from this guy's Church and he was trying to find information to gives it the newspaper and they were writing an article on what a cult leader I was. And after a year in doing these trainings, they had published an article. It went APU, UPI and then Oprah picked it up and she had invited somebody. They was disgruntled from had made it through a day in the training to her show, and then notified me like three days before they're going to interview him if I wanted to come on. And I sent a trainer Larry Pincey went and did the interview, it was, he did a really good job and it turned out pretty good. All this stuff was like flying around the work we were doing and so there were a lot of tests in there.
Okay, so how is that for you going through that?
Well, first off, they were calling me a fraud and I'm being real here, this is real. I'm actually showing up. So, I started giving myself to understanding the Bible. I started studying everything I could. I found many discrepancies. I started studying Hebrew and Latin and Greek and everything I could do to understand what they were talking about and how that applied to me and if it had some correction for me, I wanted to know. They sent stuff to CRI, the Christian Research Institute, which is a big Evangelical watchdog and they were publishing stuff. And as far as I could see, and with the guidance of my pastor and a couple of theologians that I eventually got connected with, I was on solid ground.
And so I got very good at being put on the spot and communicating particularly to a faith-based situation. And then I’m pretty steeped in the philosophical background, which I got deep into because the philosopher's were all Christian that came up with this stuff that Life Spring and these other groups are using even though they took faith out of it. So, it was a real interesting walk and I got a deep understanding, a very deep understanding of my work.
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Today we’re exploring the power of truth to expose the fraudulence that lies within each of us with my guest Dan Tocchini.
Dan met his next mentor. The late Dallas Willard was a professor and the head of the philosophy department at USC for many, many years. He was also a brilliant theologian, a respected author, and a mathematician. Dan had written him during the 90s but never got a response. And then, years later…
He called me up he said, “Is this Dan Tocchini?” I said, “Yeah. Who’s this?” He goes, “This is Dallas Willard.” I couldn't believe, I said, “Did you get my letters?” And he said, no I don't I don't know what you're talking about. I never saw any letters. And then, he goes, Maybe I got the letter you wrote on my son's heart. I go, “What'd you mean?” He says, “Well my son who is my age, is a recluse. And I've been having conversations over the last year since he did your training that I had never had with him. And it occurred to me that you're actually accomplishing what I write about, I'd like to know what you're up to.” And that started a very long and very valuable mentorship with Dallas. He helped me understand even deeper the work that I was doing and JR was involved in that process and so the two of them became mentors in a big way.
He really helped me understand the Bible from outside of a dogmatic point of view. It was very human and a relational point of view and it was beautiful. He called it a love story. He wrote a book called, the Divine Conspiracy and then wrote book called, Renovation of The Heart, which was really impactful on me as well. He ended up doing the training and I worked with him quite a bit. He had a lot of input into the work I did during the 2000s.
Dan’s faith-based trainings continued to evolve through various permutations. From that first training called Equipping the Saints to finally landing on the name ACCD: The Association for Christian Character Development.
The ministry exploded and at one point, we’re close to a million dollars a year in offerings and we’re in 12 or 13 cities in the US and couple of European cities, been to South Africa and we’re doing all kinds of stuff. And I had started a consulting firm out of it because there were a lot of people who wanted to apply the faith-based stuff that we were doing into their business. And that's how I was really supplementing my income.
And during that time, about 2006, I realized I was really complete. I started feeling like out of place at ACCD. And I wanted to turn it over to somebody else . I wanted to give it away. I wanted…I wanted to move on. I was just, I was done. And I'm much clearer now than I was then. What I wanted was to try to be somebody that I wasn't and that's where the fraud thing started to kick in again.
What were you wanting to be? What was that?
I felt like the whole faith-based approach was very limiting and I was finding that people really wanted the work that I was doing and I could live a Christian life with them without having to use the Christian vernacular and all the dogma that went with it. And I didn't have the courage. When I look back now, I lied to myself I think I lied to others, I know I did without thinking about it, just when you lie to yourself, you lie to people.
They brought in a new guy to run the business with the understanding that Dan was all in, though his heart had moved on. Plans were made to scale the company and funds were being raised. Some of the funding fell out and Dan didn’t think the strategies were going to work. He expressed his concern to the new guy, but was met with a challenge to take a stand with Plan B. Rather than say no, Dan stayed in knowing that he really wanted out.
I remember this point where I betrayed myself. And I remember it's at that point I started really feeling shame and contempt again. I remember laying in bed, not being able to sleep and not being able to figure out what it was. Meanwhile, ACCD over the next two and a half years, just, I handed the company over with $300,000 in the bank and it's supposed to go three years and take a look. At two and a half years, we were a quarter of a million dollars in debt.
And Dan’s name was still on the ministry. So, the relationship with the new guy broke down and ACCD was dissolved.
I gave all the IP away to different trainers. They were all worried I was going to keep it and they either had to work for me or not work and I wasn’t up to that cuz I really didn't want to do that work. And so I gave it away and what I saw was really beautiful. What I ultimately wanted was to see the work go on in the church and not be just snuffed out because I wasn't up to it. Now, there are probably 10 or 12 Christian based training companies where there never was any and they all came out of, they are using our curriculum and so on.
They're like your babies.
Yeah. I started to realize that this is what I really love doing is seeing people go after this the way they want to. So many people through the years would say, “Hey we want to bring us into our small group or we want to do this in our business.” How do we structure it?
I had done a lot at ACCD was restructure it a number of different ways. I had during that time at ACCD done a lot of work with kids coming out of gangs on the East Coast with straight-ahead ministries and they had done a great job of utilizing the curriculum. And then we did it with Becky Kuhn’s group and with the AIDS patients. And I saw it working for so many people. I thought, that's what I love doing.
So, since 2009, I've been focused on helping other people, supporting other people in utilizing this work in whatever they're up to and that's really what ultimately has come out of this and that's what I get to do now. I really have a clear idea of what it takes to build a life of sustainable productivity and meaning and I've gotten a chance to really get connected to my own life sentence and own it rather than it owning me. It's been very helpful.
I've identified the machinery that goes off of me that wants me to lie because I'm afraid or ashamed of exposing what I want. If what I want isn't what somebody I care about wants, I notice I struggle in that, like there's a shame there. I found that by stating what I want very clearly with the person, juxtaposed or laid up against what they want, we can usually find something that works out and then it works for both of us.
You talk about your life sentence. but I also wonder what's your core yearning? What is the thing that you've really been after all this time?
You know, there's something pulling you through your life. That you've been willing to face off with these parts of yourself that aren't the truth in order to have whatever that is. So, how would you identify that for yourself?
It’s really clearly to me. From the time my mother got sick, it started. It's that wound is to be connected. I really love family and I believe that what Jesus offered us is family. And outside the dogmatic practices, I don't think they produce anything. I think they're wonderful symbols but I think ultimately, in the nitty-gritty of life, we want some… I want someone to walk through. To me, life has no meaning without others and a meaningful life is built on relationship. And for me, that's the mark. And so, to find a relationship whether it's in a business relationship or personal relationship. What's the use of making a lot of money and being successful if I don't have anybody to share it with and celebrate life with? So, for me, it's always been about family and connecting and thus I've been destructive that way as well. I learned that anything that has the power to bring life has equal and opposite power to bring death.
When you start making a difference for people, the first thing for me is I got all egotistical about it and cavalier and then I started hurting people. with the same gifts that were used to help make a difference. Yeah, then I felt shame about that. It's a journey. I wouldn't have it any other way.
I was talking to my wife last night, we were having a glass of wine. It's beautiful to see and my wife will cry my arms and we've been married for a living together at 44 years and we have that relationship still. I was telling her how much that meant to me. And one of the most empowering things I’ve had is my daughter, my wife and my son, they've all expressed in very explicit ways that their respect for the way I’ve handled my brokenness and stood with them. For me, that's life giving. And I’m clear about what it takes and what it takes is the willingness to be wrecked.
The Hero’s Journey isn’t complete until the Hero brings home the elixir to offer others. Today Dan brings home a new offering mixed with the defeats and victories of his past struggles.
Blood and Ethos, the Institute for Heroic Living is really the expression from the lessons I learned. One, that life is blood and ethos blood meaning the physical demands of our lives, the physical limitations our death our sickness our feebleness. All the things we contend with in the physical world. Suffering is very real. When you're suffering, it's hard to stay connected. Oftentimes, a lot of times you just want to go like a wounded animal and disappear. Right? Ethos is that relationship, the love, the listening, the perseverance, the vulnerability, the rawness that it takes to keep those dreams alive.
And the heroic living is the willingness to give up that need to be in control, look good, feel good, be right for something bigger than that. There's no transformation without promises and requests and because at some point in the process of fulfilling my promise, I come up against every time, am I going to do this because of what I said or am I going to back off and do something else that feels better, that's more immediate? In that moment when I really believe, when I choose to do what I promised, I actually become my word. No longer is it something I said or did. I am it at that point and the transformation is already occurring. And I can let go of and I felt that freedom before of what I think I need. Inevitably, what I call the hidden hand of God reveals itself in some provision that may have looked like a threat just 20 minutes before when I was trying to preserve myself. Right?
I told my wife, I feel like man, I'm 63 and I feel like I'm 23 I'm writing and researching I’m doing what I love. So, I'm excited to be doing this again this way and doing it in an expression that aligns with what I'm about.
I shared a few thoughts with this relentlessly evolving Hero.
I see you face to the wind, that's the picture I have of you. You're just standing with your face to the wind and you're continually allowing yourself to look forward. Yeah, you get pummeled and you struggle but you're just in it.
The energy is so forward in a healthy way, not like you're ahead of yourself but just standing in that most present space for life and what you're about and you keep finding that. And that's what I see from… I haven't talked to you for so long but it's just so fun to listen to your journey. It's just amazing.
You can learn more about Dan and his work at Bloodandethos.com. Check out the links to his upcoming trainings. Information is in the show notes.
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